Interview with Iva Papić, one of the Deconfining writers

Introducing Iva Papić, an accomplished author whose compelling narrative captured the attention of the judges in the Deconfining short story competition, hosted by the Croatian National Theatre Ivan Zajc. In this intriguing conversation, we explore not only the secrets of her award-winning text but also delve into the deep wellsprings of her inspiration and her personal reflections on the challenges of illegal migration.

• What inspired you to create "Meistens Bettler, meistens Gesinde" and what themes did you explore through its narrative?

By profession, I am an art historian, and I have been intensively researching the culture and history of Slavonia, Baranja, and Srijem. Themes of colonization and migration are incredibly significant for these regions as they have defined their identity. I have been researching colonization for a long time, but the decisive moment of inspiration came during a conversation that revealed to me the history of the Nova Barcelona colony, founded by Catalan refugees in the first half of the 18th century in the Banat region. The topic intrigued me, and I began comparing the history of that colony with records of German colonists who were settling in the same area at the same time. The reasons for their migration, but especially the poverty of their daily lives, are incredibly similar to today’s migrant camps, which are again established in almost the same area. I was fascinated by the repetitiveness of these significant civilizational phenomena, which unfold like cycles through the centuries, with the Danube region defining itself as a stage where the same drama of repeated arrivals and departures unfolds. These migration cycles also include the latest migrations, during the Croatian War of Independence when, again on the same stage of the Danube, streams of people lost their old homes and found new ones. In short, the theme is migration, but at the same time, its historical cyclicality and repetitiveness, witnessed through the personal stories of the main characters.

• Your writing style in the text is noticeably vivid and descriptive. How did you approach the development of the story and characters to convey the depth of their experiences?

Since the competition’s conditions specified a maximum length for the story, and I delved quite deeply – through four centuries of the described area’s history – I had to write all the experiences of the main characters, mostly related to the trauma of migration, as testimonies or confessions. Through their “monologues,” I could provide the essence of each individual experience and describe each of the described migrations (German, Catalan, as well as those related to the Croatian War of Independence and the recent migrant crisis), portraying them as personal pain rather than historical phenomena. Therefore, the narrative had to be vivid, direct, realistic, convincing, in medias res, without introduction and epilogue.

• The characters in your narrative confront complex emotions such as longing, displacement, and resignation. Can you elaborate on the significance of these themes within the context of the story?

Longing, displacement, and resignation are almost a matrix that, again cyclically, repeats. Longing can be for what had to be left behind and what has irretrievably disappeared, as well as for what one strives for but is unattainable. Resignation is the other side of longing, and both can be the cause and consequence of displacement. Longing and resignation often alternate as moods in Kika, and He suffers from them simultaneously. Both longing and resignation are syndromes of deep dissatisfaction, which arose either from the trauma of migration or from some other personal experience, through which the characters witness an intrinsic desire for change, for justice, for satisfaction, for truth, for a “better world” where longing for the other, the better, the foreign, will disappear.

• How did you research and integrate historical events such as colonization and migration into your storytelling?

I researched historical phenomena of colonization and migration through classic exploration of historical literature, and their incorporation into the text was done, I would say, by the methodology of writing a scientific paper, i.e., as concise, clear enumeration of data, and proving the conclusion. I think this contributed to the attractiveness of the text, the dynamics between highly subjective storytelling and almost scientific exposition.

• The title, "Meistens Bettler, meistens Gesinde," carries significant emotional weight. Can you discuss the meaning of this phrase and its resonance with the fundamental themes of the story?

“Meistens Bettler, meistens Gesinde” in literal translation means: “Mostly beggars, mostly servants,” and basically, it is a phrase used by German newspapers in the first half of the 18th century to describe German immigrants to the eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and mainly Banat regions, which were also called the “graveyard of Germans.” The immigrants, as the phrase suggests, were from the lowest social classes and were often referred to as the “ballast of German principalities.” I think it’s clear why this phrase was chosen as the title of the story because it vividly illustrates the already described historical cycle of repetitiveness not only of migrations but also of the “carriers” of migrations, who were then, as now, mostly from the lowest social classes. The term “Meistens Bettler, meistens Gesinde” also signifies the attitude of the higher classes towards the lower classes, as this term was mostly used almost disdainfully, and we are witnesses today of the lack of empathy towards migrant crises and tragedies.

• Your text explores nuances of terminology related to refugees and migrants, challenging conventional labels and perceptions. What prompted you to explore this aspect of the refugee experience?

I emphasized the differences in terminology between the terms “illegal migrants” and “refugees” in the text primarily in the context of the absence of compassion, characteristic of any artificial system, as implied by the term “illegal migrants.” On the one hand, the word “illegal” itself carries the prefix of something negative, something that denotes transgression, breaking the law, disorder, chaos, insecurity. That prefix is then, even unconsciously, attributed to people who are essentially fleeing from war, disease, and hunger, and who, under different circumstances, are called refugees. I wanted to point out this duplicity of terminological correctness, of which we often become victims.

• Dependency and longing intertwine throughout your story, especially in the characters' reflections on vices and desires. How do you envision these themes shaping the refugee experience portrayed in your text, and what insights do they offer into the emotional and psychological challenges faced by displaced persons?

In this story, dependence is described as an anesthetic, something that enables enduring what is unnatural to endure: confinement in one place without the possibility of progress, a sense of hopelessness, confinement in past time trying to revive it, inability to live… In the story, the function of dependence is to extinguish longing, similar to extinguishing a fire. Longing is for the characters in the story a far more dangerous state than dependence.

• Renata's personal journey as a refugee turned activist provides a compelling backdrop to your story. How do personal narratives like Renata's contribute to a deeper understanding of the migration theme? Can you elaborate on the significance of Renata's narrative within the broader context of resilience and community support for displaced persons?

Renata is a paradigm of a healthy person who, based on her own refugee experience, has developed human empathy towards others’ suffering. In this understanding, she does not ask what is “good” and what is “bad”: she brings/sneaks pleasure to illegal migrants, precisely alcohol and cigarettes. Unlike her, Kika is stuck in her own refugee trauma, as He is in his migrant one, while the narrator believes that by expanding knowledge into the past, she can come to an understanding of the civilizational phenomena of migrations, of which she is also a victim. Each character in their own way illustrated a response to the trauma of migration, but Renata’s response is perhaps the most attractive because it affirms the possibility of growth from one’s own suffering, a certain human upgrade that implies becoming a better person than one was before experiencing suffering. The same principle can be applied to the community as well.

• The Danube and its surrounding areas are more than just a backdrop in your storytelling. How does this location affect the themes and motifs present in your writing, especially regarding the refugee experience?

The nature of eastern Croatia, including the Danube, is an essential part of my life and, therefore, a very lively motif in my writing. Marshes, fog, forest, rain, river, plain, all these in my work are more beings than dead nature or phenomenon. The Danube is, like all great rivers, a divider and connector, but in the Slavonia and Baranja regions, the Danube is also a border. Therefore, its role is significant in the story of illegal migrations. Also, over the centuries, the Danube has changed, and its swamps were one of the main reasons why this area was called the “graveyard of Germans.” Therefore, yes, the Danube in this story is a force that has shaped and defined people’s lives along its banks and floodplains for centuries.

You can read Iva’s text “Meistens Bettler, meistens Gesinde” → HERE!